Before i get started: Let me clarify that i am not Vegan, though i do respect Vegans, and am simply here because as the title suggest i’m morally lost, and you’ll probably see why if you read this post. I’m not looking for a fight or an argument, just a mostly peaceful discussion
I’m lost because while i’ve just been conditioned to eating meat my entire life from Dino Nuggies as a child, to fast food and Gourmet as i got older. I’ve started to take an interest into the more Philosophical side of Veganism, Vegans are concerned with exploitation of animals as far as i understand. And i thought this to be noble and admirable but i also took into consideration of the “Appealing to Nature” argument. I’m lost because while i see the many good points in Veganism and that we as humans can thrive and survive off a Vegan diet, and in no way do i think the way the meat industry operates is OK, i keep thinking of the Illusion of choice. And even more of the “We are capable of choosing not to eat meat, while animals don’t have any”. We ourselves are animals, and just like any other animal we are selfish by nature.
This led me to a more confusing question: Does veganism separate humans from nature? H
How does Veganism translate into the human condition?
Does Veganism fall strictly into a Black-and-White line of thinking? Are Morally Gray areas considered?
A hunter i meet once told me humans are the most humane killers in nature. After a while, i kind of understood what he was saying. Humans for the most part don’t tear into animals while they are still alive, Nature animals often eat prey while its still alive, as in scorpions eating prey by sucking its juices out while its still alive. I’ve been hiking multiple times and have seen these things in action. I have from a very safe distance watched as Bears tear into Deer, I’ve seen Komodo Dragons perform C sections and rip out a stillborn deer one time. All of it made me sick, but the one thing that got me in this crisis was the fact that these Predators didn’t feel any guilt.
It’s a weird feeling. But a part of me feels that this is natural, another part of me wants to stop eating meat.
I just feel empty at the moment of typing all this out. So really idk what to expect from responses, i just hope that i can get some sort of answer to all of this.
Nature is not ethical. You have the capability to be so. Do you want to forsake that option?
Most meat comes not from hunting wild animals, but from animals treated poorly on unnatural large farms for all of their unnaturally brief lives. The former is not a rationalization of the latter.
Eating meat seems normal to me. However, I also believe that consuming grains and beans is normal. I consider myself lucky to live in a world where eating grains and beans is affordable and simple. That it’s better for the environment, animals, and my health makes it even more lucky. The right way to plan a vegan diet requires knowledge and time. Since there isn’t any hypocrisy, I feel like it’s worth it and can sleep better at night.
I think you’re over complications things. If you don’t need to exploit someone, you shouldn’t. The only gray area is whether you need to. That’s how we would look at exploiting humans. We have no good reason to apply a different standard based on species.
I’m glad you called out “appeal to nature.” It’s a named logical fallacy. We shouldn’t use fallacious arguments to make decisions.
It’s overthinking on your part. You mentioned that you perceive a lot of benefits to veganism. Are there any drawbacks to being a vegan? Should you find animal agriculture’s treatment of animals unacceptable, it appears to be a rather simple choice: refuse to fund it .
Do not equate non-human animals, who must resort to violence in order to survive, with human beings. Simply said, you don’t have to tolerate suffering in order to survive.
Some creatures in nature have, evidently, developed the capacity for rational thought. For those creatures, making decisions on the basis of the reasons for and against is completely natural. This, I don’t see how humans are separate from nature at all, nor how veganism in particular would imply such
There are ethically dubious situations (honey vs all produce that is pollinated by bees, eggs from backyard hens who do not lack calcium, oysters that lack a nervous system or the capacity to walk, sugar made from bone char, etc.), but nobody seems to be prepared to discuss them. You will be banished from the vegan community if you do.
To me, you’re coming across as a teenager who has no idea what veganism even is, but has been assigned to write a paper about it and you want us to do the work for you.
It’s not an appeal to nature to decide not to exploit animals, it’s the literal opposite of that. It’s stepping outside of what was or is “natural” and choosing to do something else anyway. Why? Because we can. Because we don’t want to inflict suffering. It’s really that simple.
Humans kill humanely? I can’t believe you’re even seriously suggesting that is true. Nowhere in nature does any other animal do the absolutely batshit insane things we do to other animals we’re going to eat and NONE of it is humane. If you had even gone so far as to visit the site of the organization who coined the term, you’d already know whether or not there are gray areas. Hell, if you’d even spent 10 minutes reading this sub, you’d know the answer to that.
Now, go do some actual research and learn from people who have studied and published about the topic. No one here can answer these questions for you, especially when you’re doing your best to make them way more complicated than they are.
We are not alligators, lions, bears, that one spider that mates and then kills the male, hamsters that kill their young sometimes. We are able to think, feel, and KNOW that unnecessary killing is not cool. That bear does not dictate that you HAVE to kill that deer/fish.
Humane = having or showing compassion or benevolence. The only way I can see that ever playing a part is to end the suffering of another. And that does not mean killing because “I’m a hunter and I’m #Humane.” No hunter is humane. Unless they hunt berries.
There are moral areas, such as medication. As far as I know, all medications go through animal testing. Is that right? No. But it has probably paved the way to help others. Wearing that hand-me-down leather jacket or having to bug bomb a house to get rid of an infestation are others. We are not perfect, we just try to minimize and eradicate animal suffering, exploitation, rape, and murder from human hands.
maybe Veganism doesn’t strictly separate humans from animals, but the philosophically interesting question, to me, is whether being human puts us in a special position to be vegan. Humans have the ability to empathize and be introspective, something that, as far as we know, most animals lack. These higher order abilities are, in part, why we’ve been able to develop civilized societies. As animals with higher order consciousness, we’re in a unique position to consider other beings’ suffering and chose whether or not we would like to contribute to it.
As for the black and white thing, of course it’s a sliding scale and depends on your moral framework. But overall, the goal is to minimize animal suffering. If you’re in a situation where you’ll die if you don’t hunt, i dont think people will look down on you for that. However, if you decide that the taste of bacon justifies factory farming practices, then that’s a problem.